The Start of Jesus' Heavenly Reign & 1 Corinthians 15:25

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yorww
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The Start of Jesus' Heavenly Reign & 1 Corinthians 15:25

#1 Post by yorww » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:38 pm

To all concerned with this topic … Greetings! :)

I’m not directing this particular post to anyone in particular, only to those deeply interested in this topic. So please remember, I’m only offering the following as an opinion … an opinion on this vital matter and nothing more.

Thanks. :)

First off, I wasn’t aware of the fact that many here, do not personally believe Jesus has been ruling in the heavens, ever since his heavenly resurrection in the first century. I somehow mistakenly assumed that was the general consensus of this forum since I only read here briefly, from time to time, but I now see that is not the case. Sorry, my mistake.

Question for all:

1 Corinthians 15:25 says:

“For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.”

In your mind, does this verse mean (as evidently some few feel here at this forum):

(a) Jesus will rule or reign (for an undisclosed period of time over the earth) and his heavenly rule or reign will continue UNTIL… UNTIL “God puts all enemies under his feet”?

This is how many religious people of the world see the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:25 actually occurs. Having this viewpoint, allows for them to believe Jesus has been ruling or reigning ever since his resurrection, in the first century…when he was allowed to “sit” right beside Jehovah on His Glorious Throne, upon his return to heavenly life in great glory. — Please see Psalms 110:1; Ephesians 1:20-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:3, 4.

In this instance as mentioned above, Philippians 2:9-11 tells us Jesus has uniquely “been exalted to a superior position” where, “every knee should bow” to him … that is “in heaven and upon earth.” But, are they bowing to an established “king,” or only a promised “king,” which, I ask? Are the angels in heaven, allowed to “bow” to a promised “king,” and not an established “king” in Jehovah’s Name, I ask? If the angels in heaven, would “bow” to a non-established “king” for God, wouldn’t that possibly be considered … idolatry? Why, are they [angels] allowed to do this, I ask?

Anyway, at Luke 19:37-40, did not the people of his day, actually believe the message of the disciples of Jesus, amazingly included the fact that Jesus was a “king,” in fact, an already appointed “king” coming in “Jehovah’s Name”? Which of course, would automatically explain why Jesus point-blank said to his disciples, that he was going to come back and KILL, yes, DESTROY all those of his day that absolutely refused to accept him as God’s Appointed “King,” those specific individuals who rejected him as “king,” while he was on earth? Did he [Jesus] not say this to his disciples in Luke 19:27?

Also considering Philippians 2:9-11, are we to think the governmental “rulers” of this world included in this situation, of “bowing down” to Jesus? Should “every knee” including governmental figures of this earth, must they also, “bow” to Jesus, according to this verse, I ask? Would they also be included in the “every knee must bow down” to Jesus situation that Paul speaks of at Philippians 2:9-11, I ask?

Then too, let’s take another verse which curiously surfaces for consideration on this dramatic topic, namely Revelation 1:5.
That verse tells us, Jesus is Jehovah’s established, designated “Ruler of the kings of the earth,” does it not? So, does Jesus ALREADY HAVE this glorious position ABOVE the “kings of the earth,” or does this situation occur for him, only in the future … which?

Or contrastly, do we personally believe, again using the exact same verse, that 1 Corinthians 15:25 teaches us,

(b) Jesus is NOT PRESENTLY RULING in the heavens, but will only START or BEGIN his heavenly rule or reign only when God again, “… puts all enemies under his feet,“ just prior to (or at some time just before that event, like 1914 or other time) still before Armageddon, still in our distant future?

Which viewpoint do you personally favor, (a) or (b)?

As we all know, the Watchtower Society prefers the latter viewpoint, point (b) citing Hebrews 10:12, 13 to prove their point. They teach, according to this verse, Jesus is “waiting” … “waiting” to rule, which means the “putting of his enemies under his feet” by God then, actually STARTS … STARTS his rule or reign. Is that what you believe?

Myself, I personally favor the first viewpoint…point (a).

I believe Jesus can rule from heaven, and can continue that rule up UNTIL … UNTIL, as the verse says, “God puts all enemies” of unrighteousness, “under his feet,“ completely, and everlastingly. (Psalms 110:1, 2) And then, when Jesus’ heavenly rule ends, he then “hands the kingdom” rule back to his Heavenly Father, Jehovah and relinquishes this power. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

This of course, then could possibly mean, Jesus began his heavenly rule, yes he started it, when he was allowed to “sit upon God’s throne,“ in the first century at his resurrection. (Psalms 110:1)

Which also means, when Jesus was allowed by Jehovah to BEGIN his heavenly rule, there will NOT … NOT be “righteous” conditions prevailing upon the earth. He “rules“ [as just about every translation in the world says], or “goes subduing“ [only the New World Translation, it seems] … “in the midst of his enemies,” in fact. (See Psalms 110:2.) In fact to me, this is an interesting, very unique rendering in the Watchtower Society’s bible, of namely Psalms 110:2. Why do I say this?
Well if one checks, he finds almost every other bible scholar ON EARTH, continually renders Psalms 110:2 as Jesus “rules,” … he “rules” they say, instead of saying he “goes subduing,” as the Watchtower Society does. I wonder why? Is there something we are missing here, that the Watchtower Society is trying to hide from all Jehovah’s Witnesses? I wonder, could that be possible.

Please notice this fact about the numerous eminent bible scholars and translations of the bible, who continually render Psalms 110:2 as saying, the Messiah “RULES” instead of Jesus “goes subduing” in the “midst of his enemies,” like it is rendered uniquely in the New World Translation. I find that a curious fact. Which automatically allows for the fact that Jesus could actually “sit upon God’s Throne,” and while “sitting” right beside Jehovah, he is only allowed to “subdue” people, and that for close to 2,000 years, without actually “ruling” or “reigning” over people, from the heavens in a official capacity. I wonder. — See 1 Peter 3:22.
The Start of Jesus' Heavenly Reign & 1 Corinthians 15:25

Which means, Jesus is allowed to only “subdue” people for close to 2,000 years, from the first century up to the year of 1914, and then, and only then, he can assume his official role and capacity of heavenly “kingship” or “rulership” in the fateful year of 1914, according to the Watchtower Society uniquely and exclusively. If one adopts this viewpoint of as the Watchtower Society has, then it strangely clashes with what Jesus said about his “authority” at Matthew 28:18. I found as a baptized Jehovah’s Witness myself, calling the writing department at Bethel, on this very matter, seeking clarification, while I was pioneering. It just never made sense to me.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Anyway, please see this link showing numerous bible translations demonstrating this fact, thus revealing this curious change or adjustment made in the New World Translation. http://biblehub.com/psalms/110-2.htm
Continuing this thought, that Jesus “rules” in heaven, “in the midst of his enemies,” amidst total unrighteousness on earth, we notice this verse, [I will put my comments in here, by way of brackets.]

“All things you subjected [past tense, like in the first century] under his feet. For in that he subjected all things to him [past tense, like in the first century] God left nothing that is not subject to him [Jesus, in the first century]. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him [total unrighteousness on earth].” — Hebrews 2:8

I believe from that inspired statement above, Paul (and first century Christians) actually believed Jesus was already “ruling” or “reigning” as king over the earth, even though righteousness [on earth] was NOT prevailing upon it, at that time in the first century.

Think about it.

yorww
"He that is from God listens to the sayings of God..." -- John 8:47

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Re: The Start of Jesus' Heavenly Reign & 1 Corinthians 15:25

#2 Post by yorww » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:51 pm

Greetings everyone! :)

At Matthew 24:34, we see the words, "this generation." Was it a first century "generation" that Jesus was referring to? Or, a modern-day one, which? And how can we correctly resolve any mental conflicts here, implied by the text. Interesting question, I think.

I would probably say, resolving this question concerning Matthew 24:34 ["this generation"] and all accompanying verses associated with this topic [like known quotes from the book of Revelation & the factual destruction of the temple in 70 c.e.], and that in light of our most dubious explanation of this curious verse by the Governing Body in New York with their now infamous "overlapping generation" debacle, as shown in the January 15th, 2014 issue, compounded with the difficulties of attempting to blend in what even "preterists" have repeatedly been trying to tell us Jehovah's Witnesses in our door-to-door work ministry when we encounter them, telling us over and over, endlessly in field service ... is my friend, one gigantic task, no question.

So I commend you brothers for attempting this great task. And, I think you good people are doing a fabulous job too, considering all that's involved. It's kind of like what "Meleti" said or inferred in his article entitled: "... Let's Put All Of The Pieces Together" ... good job!

The following is "my take" on this situation, briefly worded. (Because I think there is much, much that can be said on this topic.)

A First Century Second "Parousia" [presence, coming, return, advent or whatever word you prefer] of Christ, is a very difficult concept to grasp. That I've found, certainly after decade and decade of Watchtower Society indoctrination [or teaching, if you prefer] since I was an infant. This kind of thinking can scare people from the kingdom hall, if you know what I mean. So its not for the faint of heart by no means. :)

Here is what I think.

Now, first I must say ... I am NOT, NOT a preterist. Having said that, I will proceed.

What if, we are dealing with a "paradigm" in itself.

A kind of "Type and Anti-type" like situation [as Fred Franz used to say].

Some here have already said it might be a "Dual fulfillment" type thing, but feel the Watchtower has overworked this synopsis of the matter. So, I prefer to call it a "paradigm."

The word "paradigm" breaks down in Greek combining two (2) words which literally means:

Para = Beside

and

Digm = Example

So its a "beside example" ... possibly. A mirror effect.

First, you have the original "pattern" or "image" ... the ancient one, visible before us. And then there is a "repeat" of the image, the more modern one that we will see in the future. The latter one becomes a "reflection" like found in a mirror, a copy of the original one...greatly resembling the original one, now shown, in our modern-day times...the situation we now have to deal with, by God's Permission. In this way, this becomes a great "sacred secret" [Greek: mysterion] or a "repeat" of a cataclysmic situation that has happened in the past. We thus use that situation, as a "pattern" so that we can know exactly, what to do when this drastic situation confronts us.

For example:

At Pentecost in the first century, when holy spirit was poured out upon the disciples of the first century, Peter believed he was actually living in the "last days" [ Acts 2:17] and thus could confidently quote the inspired prophet's words at Joel 2:28-32 and apply it to his day, to this event that he was experiencing, saying among other things that this experience [anointing at Pentecost] was to happen just before the "great and illustrious Day of Jehovah" [what we would call today, "Armageddon"] at Acts 2:16-21. In doing so, he strangely employed some of the very same language and terms used by Jesus, and also employed by the book of Revelation.

For instance, take Joel 2:30, 31 and then, comparing this with what's said in Matthew 24:29 and also what is said in Revelation 6:12, 13, the future. Let's consider this below:

Joel 2:30, 31 says: And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."

Matthew 24:29 says: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Acts 2:19, 20 says: And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives."

Revelation 6:12, 13 says: And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs."

So I ask, could it possible, just possible, there is

(a) an ancient fulfillment of the sacred words spoken by the prophets of old, and ... and also

(b) a modern-day fulfillment of these very same words, in our day?

Is this possible, I ask?

If so, then we could correctly call this a "para-digm" ... a mirror effect, where one "last days" of the first century, of Peter's time would mirror another one, another "last days," which would exist in our time, a "last days" in our modern-day era.

Could this be possible, I ask?

Here's another example of this distinct possibility, for us to carefully consider...a "paradigm" of prophecy, to be fulfilled again in our day.

First Century Fulfillment in Jesus' day:

Luke 23:30, 31 says: Then they will start to say to the mountains, "Fall over us!" and to the hills, "Cover us over!" Because if they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?

Second, Future Fulfillment in our modern day:

Revelation 6:16 says: And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: "Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb."

And there are more examples that we could cite, that I believe, make this same point.

If we adopt this unique viewpoint of prophecy, seeing it as a "paradigm" like situation, such as possibly shown in Matthew 24th chapter, then I believe it will be much easier for us to understand exactly what Jesus was talking about, initially-speaking in Matthew 24, and how his inspired words of his day, will even impact us today, in our modern-day setting...in the time we call, the "last days" [of our particular Jewish "system of things," Matthew 24:3, that is, the "conclusion" of it in our day, just as it was in Jesus' day.]

...hope this helps.

yorww
"He that is from God listens to the sayings of God..." -- John 8:47

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